Berks County Connection Podcast
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Berks County Connection Podcast
The Camel Project
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With Pam Gockley, Founder and Executive Director of The Camel Project bullying awareness organization, and Berks County Commissioner Michael Rivera.
Good evening and welcome to County Connection. I'm Burks County Commissioner Michael Rivera. And we're here today with another interesting program. We always always try to bring something that I feel would be interesting to the community to learn about, to find out about here in Burks County, be it an organization, be it a farm, be it something that's happening here in Burks County. And today we have a very interesting topic, and it's around bullying. I'm going to interview someone who is the founder of the Camel Project. I'm going to ask in a little bit where she came up with that name. But just so you know, I have Pamela Gaugli here with me, and she is the founder of the Camel Project. And we're going to talk about what is the Camel Project, how it's different, and why it's important here in the Burch County community. A lot of times we think about bullying and we think about kids in school, right? Middle school, uh, high school, but really bullying can go on at any level, be it in the workplace, be it at home, be it between family members, anyplace. So that's why it's important to understand what bullying is and how it can be addressed. So, Pam, welcome to County Connection.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for being here and for sharing your information today. So tell me a little bit about what is the Camel Project and how it all began.
SPEAKER_01Sure, thank you again for having us on. But um the Camel Project is a 501c3. We are a nonprofit and we are located at the Goggle Works in the city. We have a studio um office there. And I started in in 2018 because bullying was continuing to happen, and that was right after the Parkland school shooting, and then the uh Santa Fe school shooting happened um just after that. So I decided to start this because I was personally bullied relentlessly in school, and I'm old, so it's it's an old um behavior that is continuing to be learned and continue to not uh be interrupted. So as a child uh being bullied in school, committing a felony in ninth grade and being expelled, but it's still happening. So I decided to take on this topic because um suicide and homicide are the leading cause of death of our kids. This is just unacceptable to us. So I became a cognitive behavior therapist because that is the best modality to deal with the behavior. So bullying is not a person, it's a behavior. And it's learned in our communities, it's learned in our schools, it's and then reinforced at home or you know, whatever combination you want to put on there. So I started it to support and bec advocates for students, and on the other side, we train adults what trauma-informed behaviors look like, what uh fight looks like, what freeze looks like, um, and what flight looks like. And instead of just punishment and trying to discipline these students to really understand what the behavior is telling them. So my next book is called Behavior Intelligence because it is a language, but most people just uh chalk that up to being defiant. It's defiant behavior. Actually, no, it's based in trauma. So a lot of times our punishment makes it worse. So we are actually uh instigating it, and we are as adults, instead of dealing with the the child at their level, at what they're telling us, we immediately sometimes go into punishment. And even even folks in prison, some of these folks have um learned behaviors that incarceration makes them worse. And how do we release these back into our community when these behaviors have not been addressed?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's that's very interesting. It's you have to address why it's happened. You need to get down to the core of it, and that's what what you do.
SPEAKER_01Right, yes, exactly. And whether it's um addiction, there's always a trauma, and that the the addiction isn't about the substance, it's about relieving the pain. So, how can we work with people and build confidence and resiliency in them? You know, so we do a bunch of different programming. We will have programming for schools, we have programs for parents, we have programs in the business uh uh setting. So we have these, like for example, we just did one, it's called confidence, what it is, where it goes, and how to get it back. And it's just um uh teaching people to identify their own behaviors because it starts with you, but it's not about you. So if you don't identify your own behaviors, you are probably perpetuating it and making it worse. So when people go, what's wrong with our kids today? And I'm like, Well, it's probably what are your behaviors? Let's talk about you, and then everybody gets uncomfortable, and then they don't want to talk to me anymore. But you know, if if we would get the will and have the confidence in ourselves to understand what our behaviors are communicating with people, I think we would all be much happier, and I think we would, you know, cut that suicide rate down. I mean, we just lost a student in Fleetwood high school you know, high school. So this is not just a national problem, this is a Berks County problem. And we hope people have the will and the strength and the confidence to take these programs and really make some adjustments to how they treat people, how they talk to each other. But first you gotta know how you talk to yourself.
SPEAKER_00I think and part of the problem is the things we experienced while we were growing up is a lot of times what we consider as normal and accepted. Yes. You know, so if we when we were a kid we were talked down to and we were belittled by be it by our parents, be it by other kids at school, that's what we feel is normal, and that's what we're going to do to other people then because we feel, well, that's what they did to me, so that's normal behavior, and we act that way as well. But it's like you said, we need to understand that what is right and what is wrong.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's it's about resiliency. So when I when people say, Well, what's wrong with our kids today? I ask them, and they'll say, Well, the when I was in school, well, how many school shootings happened during your core your high school career? None. Well, then you don't have anything to base your opinion on. Um, it could be cultural, it could be um, you know, uh inherited type of behaviors. How do they treat each other? How do you treat women? How do you treat men? You know, I see boys struggling with identity, and you know, all they want to do is play video games. Well, that is their identity. So we as adults have to understand and recognize that and give them other things to do. That's why we do the chalkpalooza, because you get a piece of chalk in a in a kid's hand and give them free roam in a safe environment, they will create amazing things. And if you come about noon, almost all the people on the ground are adults. So people always go, that's a great kids' event. I'm like, yeah, come around noon, they're all adults, and that's fine. That's what we want to do, bring community together in a safe environment. Because when you're bullying, you first lose your creativity and your cre uh your curiosity. So those are the two things we try to feed to the students, and we're trying to get adults to understand this is not your world anymore. We're in a brand new world, and as long as we keep uh just punishing students, it's gonna continue to get worse, in our opinion.
SPEAKER_00So the camel project, how do you come up with that name? Well, yeah, yeah, camel project bullying.
SPEAKER_01Well, first of all, you can't really like you know, when you go to buy uh giveaways and stuff, it's really hard to find camels that you can give away.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01So I wrote a book, Not All Camels Are in the Desert, and it's based on my life experience. And camel was my nickname growing up, and it was not a term of endearment. And you know, even the teachers, it's become institutional of bullying, and I'm not sure they understood that that was not a nice name to call a little girl. So um in ninth grade, like I said, I committed a felony, I was expelled. Um parting words from the vice principal was you're fat and lazy, will never graduate from high school. So um I did. I have two college degrees and own my own business, and now we started the Camel project. I'm a dyslexic, they told me I can't write a book, so I'm writing my number sixth. But Camel Pro Camel was my nickname growing up, and I took the name back. This is my name now. It is my word, it's chalk and bubbles, and it's understanding, and it's a safe environment for people at whatever age can thrive. So that's why the camel project, because that was my nickname, and it is we have the camel caravan, we have the 40-foot RV, uh, we have we have the book, uh, and then we have our bracelets, and everything is based on the camel because it's mine my word now.
SPEAKER_00So have you done any projects or any events where you've actually brought camels in?
SPEAKER_01No, the board will not allow me because those things are very expensive. The board is like, uh but as soon as I can, you know, we get some more grant money going, I will have a camel somewhere in the city of Reading for sure.
SPEAKER_00That'd be interesting to see. So if you ever do let me know when you're coming in.
SPEAKER_01I will certainly let you know, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00So, how does your approach uh to dealing with bullying, how does it approach from other, how does it differ from other programs? What what makes your program different?
SPEAKER_01So when we started this, I've been in business for 30 years, so I have that business acumen to support the nonprofit. So um I was gonna license a program or I was going to um you know purchase a program, but there wasn't any. All the programs that I found were about changing the behaviors of the kids. There was not one single program based on challenging the adults to their behaviors, their limiting beliefs. You know, um, I mean, whether it's abusive relationships or, you know, white supremacy, these are all behaviors. So there wasn't one for me to use. I was shocked. So even the most nationally known organizations have programs, but they only look at changing the kids' behaviors. It's like blaming the target of bullying and not the bully, right? So I'm a dyslexic, so I turned everything on his head. So that's why we want to focus and we want to work with adults to teach people, you know, our program. We have a three-hour certification program through the Camel Project. Last year at the Reading School District, we worked with 1,723 students did check-ins with us. So there is a real need for this. And we trained over 3,000 people on this to start shifting the culture away from hate. We call it hate. We like to call it what it is, and sometimes people don't like that. Uh, but we want to shift it away from hate into understanding, and that we will reduce the stress that comes with all this judgment and this grief. And there's always something that was not healed, so we have a lot of wounds. We live in a wound culture, and we have a stigma against uh healing. So we want to heal people, we want to teach them how to heal themselves, and we work with various different companies, and we are currently in the Reading School District. Um, that was the only district in the county that would admit they have a bullying problem in their school. So uh we would love to come to every district in this county, teach the adults, and come back as a support system because nobody changes a behavior in a three-hour training. It's good. I'm very good at what I do, but I'm not that good. Yeah. So we could have a continued support system, which was another thing none of the programs we looked at had. It was like here you pay this $25,000 for this training, and then they leave. So if we would be training, let's just say the county or the city staff, we would come back for continuing support system because it is hard to change the behavior. I mean, can you eat one potato chip out of the bag? It's a hard thing to change a behavior, and we understand that. But if you're not kind to yourself, you can't be kind to others. If you don't love yourself, you can't love others. So you can only hit give what you have, and we're trying to build that capacity through understanding and knowledge.
SPEAKER_00Okay, very interesting. I do want to stop here a moment and just ask you because we've talked about anti-bullying program. Uh how do you define bullying?
SPEAKER_01So I personally um they have a really stock answer nationally, which nobody asks me, so I don't agree with. But it can be any the problem, it gets very complicated because it went when anybody feels uncomfortable. So you saying something may not feel you uncomfortable, make you uncomfortable, but if you don't have that empathy, you will never understand the impact that you have. And that's what I tell people. You impact a room, you need to know what that is, and invest the time in yourself. So anytime you make somebody feel uncomfortable, that is a red flag that you need to understand. You may need to do some work inside. Obviously, physical, any physical contact, that that's physical bully. But then there's social media bullying, there's um, you know, um face-to-face bullying, letting people out, and it is all very subtle, but yet if you're looking for it, it's very obvious. I mean, very obvious. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So you deal with the person who is bullied as well with the person who is doing the bullying also. So it's not just dealing with one, it's dealing with both.
SPEAKER_01So we have the target program, the per people who are being targeted. Um, we don't um we want to do observations, we don't want to blame, but why are they picking on you? Why are you being targeted? Are you very quiet? And not that we're justifying, but that awareness. We work with the bully. Some every bully was bullied. There were they learned the behavior somewhere. We also work with the witness, the one who sees it, and you know, there's three types of witnesses. One that, you know, is in there, yeah, hit him again. There's one that just sees it and doesn't respond. And then we have the hero who who steps in and tries, who usually gets in trouble. It's always the second one in who always gets in trouble. But then you have the the ones who want to actually want to stop it, and most time they then get in trouble. Whether it's an adult with possibly a police officer coming on, or a student with a teacher, because the second one always gets in trouble.
SPEAKER_00Or the one who gets hit, right? And that could be true. Trying to separate it. Yes. One that that ends up getting hit the most.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And again, understanding why the two are clashing, and that's why this program we do in the schools, we interrupt it because I can see when a kid is struggling, I can see when one is very, very angry, I can it there's it's obvious if you're trained to see it, we can intervene, interrupt it, and it's an intervention, is what we call it. And then we try to de-escalate them. De-escalation is a huge part of our training on how to not amplify it, you know, hold a grudge now, you know, that kind of thing. Um, but we that's a de-escalation so we can send them back to the classroom to continue their education.
SPEAKER_00Okay, good, very much needed.
SPEAKER_01I think so. I think so.
SPEAKER_00How do you say that social media has affected or changed bullying? Many years ago when I was a kid we didn't have social media. Did it mean that there wasn't any bullying? Uh, but how has social media changed bullying?
SPEAKER_01So I think um it has made it just worse. Um it's 24-7. They never get to turn it off. I mean, when we when I left school it was done, and then I had the rest of the time at home. That was a whole other situation, but um this is 24-7, and it can be amplified and go viral. So it's still bullying, and if we can interrupt it and stop that before it gets to social media, then it won't be amplified. But these kids are good at it too, much better than I am, but it made it so much worse and so much larger. It's not just two kids in the cafeteria anymore, it's the world. So when I talk to kids, oddly enough, I asked them because they know me, uh, and I say, Well, how about social media? Do you get bullied? They're like, No, I just delete them, or I just block them. So they have much better handle on it than the adults, honestly. Just go on Facebook. You'll you'll see some, but they're all over, you know, 35. So they're not the kids part either. So I think kids have a lot of more control over technology than we give them credit for. And I'll say, so they they don't they don't bug you. No, not so much. I just balk them, I just ignore them. But then you'll have another student who will, you know, 75% of all suicides have bullying as a major contributing factor. This, you know, is real stuff, and a lot of that can be the social media bullying because some kids just don't have that resiliency to just ignore it and let it roll off. Yeah, those are the ones I worry about.
SPEAKER_00I've seen also through social media, like for example, I have people that will, if there's something going on in in the political world, uh post something on social media, uh, but then when they see me face to face, it's oh hi, how are you? Good seeing you, it's been a while. Uh and um there's a there's a name for when people do that where they like sit behind the computer on their keyboard and they're posting negative stuff, but then when they're out there face to face, when they're in the world, they're a totally a different person.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, a keyboard warrior is a very good thing. And and again, to me, instead of blaming or being upset or angry with them, I'm thinking, what is going on in their world that they don't have enough confidence to say it to my face? What is going on with them? You know, are they just living in fear? Is there frustration? A lot of this is a lack of control. They need to control something, and again, it becomes their identity, just like I was mentioning earlier. Video games or even weapons are now people's identity. So again, I just I flip into I don't get offended. I say I haven't been offended since 1999 because I don't have the energy for it, right? I want to figure out where did that come from? Where is that coming from? And hopefully that person would be willing to work on themselves, invest some time and energy to figure out that's not very good behavior, so let's how can we figure out why you're doing it? And it may have been done to them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So uh I would say, do you have to live with that person? No. Well then what's it matter? You know, just let it go, walk past it. Unfortunately, um, everybody knows who that person is, and you aren't the only one they do it to. So if you take that into consideration, it doesn't have as much of a sting for you personally. I know you have a thick skin because you're a commissioner in the county of Brooks, so I know that, but uh still that that can really work on you as well, and letting that go is very important. But understanding that person may have some deeper, way deeper issues. It could be addiction, it could have been abuse uh early in life, it could have been um just um bipolar, it could be depression or anxiety. Um, and I became uh uh first aid uh certified, so I'm qualified to identify schizophrenia. I'm not qualified to treat it, but if I'm dealing with somebody who is bipolar. You don't treat them the same who's just angry for the next minute. Or if somebody's depressed versus anxiety, there's different ways you have to work with them. But understanding people are dealing with a lot of stuff and you know blaming people who may have a deeper emotional problem probably is not best for you.
SPEAKER_00So if I if I'm being bullied and I can't understand that and it's affecting me, it's it's hurting me, what do I do?
SPEAKER_01Well, you can always call me. My phone is always on. Uh I may not know where the phone is all the time, but um reach out for help and have your white knights around you that can support you, that don't judge you, but then don't pander to you either. Um I always say ask a 13-year-old, they'll tell you exactly how it is. They they just don't uh have those kind of filters who will just pander. But reach out for help, whether it's a a therapist or someone in your family who you can trust and actually speak to. I always tell people my phone is always on, whoever I ever trained, I said, at any point you want to call me and have a question, please just reach out to somebody before it gets to the point of possible depression, anxiety, and then that rolls right into you know violent behaviors. So, you know, even these students um who are um involved in gun shooting or shooting or some kind of violence, if I could have like a week with them to really work with, that's why we have a juvenile program as well for the ones who are just touching that we want to take to the judges, the local judges, to uh sentence them to four weeks of our training that we can work through this with them to know why they're angry all the time. Why are you angry all the time? Or adults, why are you angry? Why are you um so much in control that you're not living your best life? So let's just sit down and talk about it when they're ready. If they're not ready, there's I can't make anybody do anything, but yeah, absolutely. Reach out, get a get you have to have your your five safe people that you can talk to.
SPEAKER_00So if so that's what I would do, right? Or what I should do if I'm if I feel that I'm being bullied. But what if I'm one of those five people and you come to me and say, hey Michael, I I'm being bullied, I'm feeling this way, that way. If I have no training, probably don't know what to do. So what would you say to me if someone does come with that and say to me, hey, this is how I'm feeling, I'm starting to feel oppressed, I'm feeling bullied, you know, this is happening. How should I respond to that? Not a you know full intensive class here, but just from my knowledge, so if someone would come to me and say that, how do I react? What do I do?
SPEAKER_01Listen to them. So out of the over uh almost 2,000 students, 85% said the program was helpful. And I I didn't do the survey, and I said, why? And they said, because she listened to me. Just listen to them. Let them get it out. You don't have to fix them, they're not broken. You don't have to have the answers for them. Just and it that's really hard for people to do because everybody wants to help. Well, my advice in my life no, no, no, don't do that. Just listen to them. They may not be ready or want to hear a next step, but they're not broken. Please don't think people are broken. They just need more support. So just listen to them. Eighty-five percent of the students said it was helpful because eighty-five percent. Because I don't fix them. I listen. Just listen. Don't judge, just allow them to talk themselves out. Eventually they will stop talking, depending on how much and how long they talk, you can tell how much stress they're dealing with.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00Very interesting. Fortunately, we only have about one minute left.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00So, in that minute, Pam, what would you like our audience to know? What what what message would you like to share?
SPEAKER_01Um, I I just want folks to know that you impact the room, you impact your community. It starts with you, but it's not about you. Get some training and understanding that these kids are uh living with trauma. We all have trauma since COVID, there's no question. So, how each individual person deals with it, it's complicated in that sense, but you need to start the healing of our community.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so everyone can help, everyone can play a part. Very good. Pam, thank you very much. Thank you. Appreciate you being here. Thank you for the work that you do here in our county around bowling, and uh keep on working hard.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, I will. Thanks.
SPEAKER_00And thank you for watching County Connection here on BCTV. Enjoy the rest of your evening.